Episode 248: When in Rome

 

This week Shauna and Dan delve into the phrase "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Bonus: Dan pines for a Sister Act 3, Shauna steals coins from fountains, and Catholic Saints talk about when they should fast

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Bunny Trails: A Word History Podcast
Episode 248: When in Rome
Record Date: September 15, 2024
Air Date: September 18, 2024

Intro

Shauna:
Welcome to Bunny Trails, a whimsical adventure of idioms and other turns of phrase.

I’m Shauna Harrison

Dan:
And I’m Dan Pugh

Each week we take an idiom or other turn of phrase and try to tell the story from its entry into the English language, to how it’s used today.

Opening Hook

Have you ever been in an unfamiliar situation and you are unsure of how to act or what to do? Maybe it’s being at a friend's house and you can tell the rules are different for their house than they are for your own. Or maybe you are a guest at a religious or cultural event. Or possibly you are visiting a different part of the world. So you just watch what everyone else is doing and try to - kind of - do what they do to fit in. Because when in Rome, you do as the Romans do.

Meaning

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, When in Rome, Do as the Romans Do means:

Quote
when abroad or in an unfamiliar environment, adopt the customs or behaviour of those around you
End Quote
https://www.oed.com/dictionary/rome_n?tab=meaning_and_use#25238550

This one has a quite common origin story that comes from letters written in Latin. I do not read Latin so I cannot verify this origin outside of English, but there are some reputable sources that use it.  I’ll start with the origin story as reported at dictionary.com, which starts off with an example usage:

~387
Quote
Follow local custom, as in Kate said they'd all be wearing shorts or blue jeans to the outdoor wedding, so when in Rome—we'll do the same . This advice allegedly was Saint Ambrose's answer to Saint Augustine when asked whether they should fast on Saturday as Romans did, or not, as in Milan.
End Quote
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/when-in-rome-do-as-the-romans-do

On a side note, according to the National Honey Board, Saint Ambrose is the patron saint of beekeepers. Well, actually one of like, 5 patron saints of beekeepers. We will look through some of these folks in an article from the National Honey Board as part of our behind the scenes video, available every Friday on our Patreon, which is patreon.com/bunnytrailspod

Ambrose was the Bishop of Milan from 347 to 397. And Augustine of Hippo moved to Milan from Rome around 384. Augustine sought advice from Ambrose around 387; the advice given was effectively saying “to avoid scandal, follow the customs of the church you are attending”. They fasted on Saturday in Rome, they did not fast on Saturdays in Milan. So, when in Rome, do as the Romans do. Of course, none of that was in English. So, as makes sense, the first times we see it in English is through translated works from things written in Latin.

1545
Here is an early example of the translated phrase in English. This is from Richard Taverner’s 1545 translation of Erasmus’ Proverbs or Adagies, brought to us by way of the Oxford English Dictionary

Quote
With this laten prouerbe agreeth yt which is commonly in euery mans mouth in England Whan yu art at Rome, do as they do at Rome.
End Quote
https://www.oed.com/dictionary/rome_n?tab=meaning_and_use#25238550

~1670
This example comes from George Havers 1670 translation of Gegorio Leti’s 1669 work, The History of the Cardinals of the Roman Church.

Quote
If you ask a Catholick why he commits such faults as these he presently answers you, Whilst one is at Rome, one must live as they do there, out of Rome, as in other places. Nor are the Protestants unprovided of the same answer when they reside in Catholick Countries, And this is the miserable case of Religion.
End Quote
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Il_Cardinalismo_di_Santa_Chiesa_or_the_h/c1JpAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22whilst%20one%20is%20at%20rome%22

He does go on to say he doesn’t think this is the norm as he knows many who do not do this. But it serves as a warning to those who would break the tenants of the faith in the name of convenience.

1754                                        
Here is an example from a letter written by Pope Clement XIV to Dom Gaillard, Prior of the Chartreux at Rome. It is dated September 21, 1754.

Quote
The Siesto, or afternoon’s nap of Italy, my most dear and reverend Father, would not have alarmed you so much, if you had recollected, that when we are at Rome, we should do as the Romans do. Cum Romano Romanus eris.
End Quote
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Interesting_Letters_of_Pope_Clement_XIV/LzU3AAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=when+in+rome+do+as+the+romans+do&pg=PA157&printsec=frontcover

1826
This one cites the phrase as an old proverb, which at this point it is. This is from the American Watchman and Delaware Advertiser out of Wilmington, Delaware, USA dated February 17, 1826. The paragraph is called, Conformity to the World:

Quote
There is an old and wise proverb teaching the propriety of complying with the requisites of the various fashions of the inhabitants of the earth, which is expressed in the worlds and to the effect as follows: “When you are in Rome, do as the Romans do.”
End Quote
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn82014894/1826-02-17/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1756&sort=date&date2=1963&searchType=advanced&language=&sequence=0&index=13&words=do+Romans&proxdistance=5&rows=20&ortext=&proxtext=&phrasetext=do+as+the+romans+do&andtext=&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1


1913
This one is from The Day Book out of Chicago, Illinois dated March 17, 1913. It references two people dressing up to attend to foreign representatives in Washington, DC.

Quote
It was all right to ‘sling on the togs’, too. When in Rome, do as the Romans do, or you may find yourself in the main sewer instead of the leading restaurant.
End Quote
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045487/1913-03-17/ed-1/seq-28/#date1=1756&index=5&rows=20&searchType=advanced&language=&sequence=0&words=Rome+When&proxdistance=5&date2=1963&ortext=&proxtext=&phrasetext=%22when+in+rome%22&andtext=&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

1948
Here is an alternate take on the phrase, seen in the Evening Star out of Washington, DC, USA dated June 6, 1948. This is talking about the making of Gregory Ratoff’s newest film, Footlight Serenade, filmed on location in Rome. First, we’ll see the alternate take and then I’ll skip down several paragraphs to show how the author totally missed the point.

Quote
Making a screen epic in the Eternal City was easy for Gregory Ratoff. His rule: When in Rome, be yourself.
End Quote

And if you are comfortable in who you are, I think that can be great advice. Though many people are still trying to figure themselves out and for those people that advice won’t do much good. Perhaps that is part of the reason for the change just a few paragraphs later:

Quote
Mr. Ratoff had discovered the secret of getting along with the natives: when in Rome, do as Ratoff does.
End Quote
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1948-06-06/ed-1/seq-105/#date1=1756&sort=relevance&date2=1963&searchType=advanced&language=&sequence=0&index=0&words=Rome+when&proxdistance=5&rows=20&ortext=&proxtext=&phrasetext=%22when+in+rome%22&andtext=&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1
 
To recap, the phrase likely started in Latin with advice from the Catholic Church in the late 300s common era and moved into English in the mid 1500s. It spread outside of the Church by the 1800s, though it probably did that sooner. And we still use it today in much the same way, though with broader implications. With that, it’s time to move to our more modern uses but first we need to say thank you to our sponsors.

A Quick Thank You
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Modern Uses

1952
We left off before the break at 1948 and I want to pick back up in that same timeframe with a movie called When in Rome that aired in 1952. Here is some information about the movie from Turner Classic Movies:

Quote
On a voyage to Italy for the 1950 Holy Year celebrations, Pennsylvania priest John X. Halligan bunks with Joe Brewster, an affable conman who, unknown to John, has escaped from San Quentin.
End Quote
https://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/851/when-in-rome#overview

I’ll pick up with my much shortened synopsis:
After initially being arrested thinking he was the con-man, Father John is quickly asked to help find the fake Father Joe in Rome and bring him to justice. But along the way, it seems Father Joe, in acting as a priest, may be having a change of heart and is beginning to believe himself worthy of grace.

It was directed by Clarence Brown - whose list of films is like a reading list of the biggest movies of the 30s and 40s. Brown directed the original Angels in the Outfield, which came out in 1951. When in Rome stars two big names of the day in Van Johnson as Father John and Paul Douglas as the con-man Joe Brewster.
 
1988
In 1988, the band When in Rome had their only Top 40 hit on the Billboard Hot 100 with The Promise. The band eventually disbanded after being dropped by Virgin Records in 1993.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HI_xFQWiYU

2010
When in Rome is a 2010 Romance Comedy, often referred to as a RomCom starring Kristen Bell and Josh Duhamel. Here is the synopsis from Disney:

Quote
An ambitious young New Yorker, disillusioned with romance, takes a whirlwind trip to Rome, where she defiantly plucks magic coins from a fountain of love, inexplicably igniting the passion of an odd group of suitors
End Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oImkzL6o_o

2022
When in Rome is a contemporary romance novel by Sarah Adams. Here’s the synopsis from Dell Books.

Quote
Opposites certainly attract for the stranded pop star and small-town baker in this charming slice of romance from the author of the TikTok sensation The Cheat Sheet .

Amelia Rose, known as Rae Rose to her adoring fans, is burned-out from years of maintaining her "princess of pop" image. Inspired by her favorite Audrey Hepburn film, Roman Holiday, she drives off in the middle of the night for a break in Rome . . . Rome, Kentucky, that is. When Noah Walker finds Amelia on his front lawn in her broken-down car, he makes it clear he doesn’t have the time or patience for celebrity problems…
End Quote
https://www.google.com/books/edition/When_in_Rome/7W9ZEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0

Of course, Noah ends up seeing the non-celebrity side to Ms. Rose and they fall in love. Probably. I haven’t read it.

2023
Here’s another book of the same title, When in Rome, though this one is by Liam Callanan and came out in 2023. Here’s the synopsis from the author’s website:

Quote
Meet Claire: fifty-two, desperate to do something new and get a fresh start.

And Rome: Home to a struggling convent facing a precipitous end, the city beckons Claire, who’s long had a complicated relationship with religion, including a teenage brush with convent life. Once in Rome, she finds a group of funny, fearless nuns in a gorgeous villa, beautiful runs throughout a color-saturated city, and a chance to reflect. It all leads her to an unexpected question—should she join the convent?—and an answer that startles her as much as it does those closest to her.

And Marcus: a once-buzzy actor, eternally in love with Claire. He’s come and gone from Claire’s life since college but now reappears in Rome just as she’s about to decide what’s next.

As Claire searches for her higher calling, she finds the key to her future may lay in her past—and involves an actual key. The nuns swear it unlocks nothing, but on a night when choices and voices swirl, Claire finds a long-hidden lock.

A look at faith, in oneself as much as a higher power, and love, romantic and familial, lost and found, this is the story of a woman who sets out to rewrite her story, only to be surprised by the plot twists life plants . . .
End Quote
https://www.liamcallanan.com/about-when-in-rome-more

2023
This next one is an artwork called When in Rome by Jen Lublin. It is the 5th in a series of 9 from the DOLCE VITA DREAMS collection which debuted in June of 2023. Here’s a little from the jen lublin design website:

Quote
This whimsical illustration was created to portray La Dolce Vita, transporting you to Rome's Trevi Fountain. Sweet highlights are the famous "triple coin toss into the fountain", which mythologically told through ancient stories and films, symbolizes one's "return to Rome", "Finding love in Rome" and "Marrying the love you met in Rome"! The Trevi Fountain is known for being over-crowded with Tourists at all hours of the day and night. This art however makes the "picture-perfect" atmosphere just right!
End Quote
https://jenlublindesign.com/products/when-in-rome-original-artwork


Current
When in Rome is a tour company that does guided tours of Rome, the Vatican, and Pompeii. Here is their snippet from the FAQ portion of their website.

Quote
Rome… it’s a jungle out there so here’s your machete! Having lived and worked in this magnificent city for a great many years, we’re well placed to advise you. It’s important to know about public transport, Rome taxi drivers, where and where not to eat, how to manage your time in our city and most importantly, how to get the best experience from your time here. Read what you need and send us a message if anything is unclear.
End Quote
https://www.wheninrometours.com/faq/

I’ve been to Italy but I’ve never been to Rome. It always looks crowded so if I’m going to visit I should probably figure out when the closest thing to an off-season is.

Wrap Up
One of my goals in life, something I came to in my 40s, is my desire to spend a year as an expatriate, meaning living in a different country than my own. And the phrase When in Rome seems to be decent advice in that regard, but it is missing something. On the one hand, I enjoy learning about other cultures and other ways of doing things and the best way to do that is to embrace those cultures. But on the other hand, I also think it’s important to keep the parts of who you are and not let all of those things go. But I think a failure to embrace a culture would make ex-pat life hard, so I think as a general rule, when I’m in Rome, or Panama, or Spain, or Chile… I’ll do as they do.

Dan:
That’s about all we have for today. If you have any thoughts on the show, or pop culture references we should have included,
reach out to us on Patreon, patreon.com/bunnytrailspod or comment on our website bunnytrailspod.com

Shauna:
It’s poll time!

Recently, we asked our Patrons if they fly a flag or banner and if so, when.

60% of respondents say they fly some sort of flag or banner, with 20% of total respondents saying they fly something all the time and 40% saying some of the time.

Dan:
Jan said

Quote
US flag on Independence Day sometimes. When we have exchange students they bring a small flag of their home country with them and we'll display them in the house.
End Quote

I have a wichita flag from pridefest that is also a pride/trans flag hanging on my wall in the background of the podcast videos. That stays up all the time. I occasionally have some other flag or banner up to honor or remember folks in their time of struggle or hard work. I have a Jamaican flag to remember their recovery work following Hurricane Beryl and I also currently have a Wichita State University banner up to honor loved ones who are student’s there.

When I worked as a paramedic, we used to go out and put up the American Flag every day at the start of the shift and take it down in the evening in a small ceremony. Usually only two of us did it, but sometimes it was a bit bigger deal, like on certain holidays and on the anniversaries of tragic events in US history.

Shauna:

Mary said
Quote
The only flags I displayed regularly were from around the world in my choir room. Last year, I finally met the man who goes quietly through my neighborhood and places American flags along the curb just before patriotic holidays and then takes them away right after. Nice guy. Now, I rarely display flags on my own but they still stir up strong emotions. I once saw an American soldier running on the bike path in full camouflage wearing a rucksack and carrying a huge flag from a country that had recently been invaded. I felt compelled to stop and consider the power of that message. Whatever the reason we fly a flag, be it to support those we love like Dan or to show solidarity for the oppressed like the soldier, I believe it should always be for the positive qualities that flag represents.
End Quote

As a reminder, our silly polls mean absolutely nothing and are not scientifically valid. And patrons of all levels, including our free tiers, can take part. Head over to patreon.com/bunnytrailspod to take this week’s poll!

Outro

Shauna:
Thanks for joining us. We’ll talk to you again next week. Until then remember,

Together:
Words belong to their users.