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Dan: 00:00 Well,
welcome to bunny trails, a whimsical adventure of idioms and other turns of
phrase. I'm Dan Pugh
Shauna: 00:05 and
I'm Shauna Harrison. Each week we delve into the origin and history of an idiom
or other turn of phrase and discuss how it's been used over time. This week I'm
going to say a lot of random nonsense, so you'll just have to take everything I
say with a grain of salt.
Dan: 00:20 Oh,
I see. I would in my head I was wondering, well how's that different than any
other week, but now I get it. It was part of your opener.
Shauna: 00:33 So
actually one of our awesome listeners requested today's idiom. Chris was in
class and heard his instructor use the phrase and he asked us to quote, do our
thing and share what we learned.
Shauna: 00:49 Well,
take it with a grain of salt is a very popular phrase and for most people it
means that you are going to kind of use your own wisdom when listening to
certain people talk or share their knowledge.
Shauna: 01:07 Correct.
So this phrase is going to take us back in time and we'll be reading a little
bit of Latin.
Shauna: 01:21 There
are some really wonderful theories associated with this phrase. Uh, but first
let's, let's figure out what that Latin is. And it is Cum Grano Salis. And word
for word that translates to with, grain, and salt. Uh, so with a grain of salt.
However, as we know, translation doesn't actually work that way as far as the
word for word thing goes. But it does actually lead to the first theory that I
want to discuss. And I sort of love this one because it works so well in
storytelling. Imagine you are a Roman from a long, long time ago.
Dan: 02:02 I
have lead poisoning by the way. And probably syphilis or gonorrhea or
something. I don't know.
Shauna: 02:09 Ah,
so you want someone to consider what another person says before just taking it
as fact.
Shauna: 02:18 You
might want to tell them to use their brain or their wits. And you might even
say to take things with a little bit of wit and wit in Latin is Sal, S A L and
that is the same root word as salt in Latin.
Dan: 02:35 Huh.
So could one theory would be it is a mistranslation of "take this with a
little bit of wit."
Shauna: 02:43 Yes.
Um, the so because that same word translates and Salis is actually the genitive
of Sal. So it's, it's the same word.
Dan: 02:52 Are
we doing this thing that I hate when you do, when you present something, but
then it's actually not factually accurate, but now I've thought that it was
accurate. Are we doing that right now?
Dan: 03:08 Yes,
Then you did that thing. You did that thing that I said last episode. I hate
when you do.
Shauna: 03:12 Okay.
No, no, no, no, no. I said this is a theory. Okay. One theory that's not
accurate.
Dan: 03:20 Fortunately,
our listeners are much smarter than we are about taking what we say with a bit
of grain of salt, which is why we cite all of our sources.
Shauna: 03:29 Yes.
Uh, all right, so, uh, if you were to consider this, that originally it started
to take things with a little bit of wit and that turned into over time and
mistranslations, um, in to take it with a grain of salt
Shauna: 03:51 Yeah.
Yeah. It just doesn't work that way guys. That's not what translating is. Let's
move on to another theory and this is a really good one. We're going to go back
in time all the way to the first century CE and this is to the time of the
great Roman author naturalist and natural philosopher, Naval and army commander
of the early Roman empire and friend of emperor Vespasian. . I'm speaking of
course about Pliny the elder.
Dan: 04:19 Oh
yes. Well Pliny... That man. Good stuff sometimes. Really bad stuff most of the
time. He probably tried hard.
Shauna: 04:49 Pliny's
been credited with quotes such as "home is where the heart is".
"The only certainty is that nothing is certain", and "fortune
favors the brave or bold". Yeah. Great. Right. Okay. So in his Magnum
Opus, see what I did there. Throw in that Latin Latin. Yeah.
Shauna: 05:08 All
right. Magnum Opus means greatest work. So that would be that big book that we
were talking about, which is called natural history. It's an encyclopedia and
Pliny the elder shared what was believed to be a cure for poison, which
contained a grain of salt.
Dan: 05:25 If
you have ever listened to the saw bones podcast, which is a, uh, a medical
history talking about all of the crazy things that we used to do in medicine
they will talk at end about how plenty of the elder had all kinds of cures for
all kinds of things. Most of them involving like Rams hearts placed topically
or something. Yeah,
Shauna: 05:45 it's
pretty fun. Uh, so the story goes when Mithra Dottie's was defeated by Pompei,
a notebook was found in the King's own hand with a prescription for an
antidote, which consisted of only two dried walnuts, two figs and 20 leaps of
rue pounded together with a pinch of salt. Uh, that's just one version. There
are.
New
Speaker: 06:09 very
many versions of that same story out there. Uh, it makes me want to learn Latin
so that I can even more Latin so that I can just like read the whole thing for
myself.
Dan: 06:17 Right.
We both went to school in America where Latin is not something that is taught
to children.
Dan: 06:27 Right.
I would argue that English obviously isn't taught very effectively given the
fact that how we see how many of us read and write English.
Dan: 06:37 It
is difficult language. I did not, I do not wish I was in the role of English
teachers. Those who teach either English as a, as a foreign language or even
those that teach it as a first language because Oh my goodness, that has gotta
be a really difficult job.
Shauna: 06:56 So,
uh, one thing I also want to note about this whole thing, there's, there are a
variety of versions of the story, but a lot of them, like they have the same
recipe or one that's similar and all of them have Rue in it. At least all the
translations I could find. And that, let me just tell you that Rue is not a
medicine. Um, it's kind of a toxin. It can cause like liver and kidney damage
and upset stomach rashes. It makes you more sensitive. To the sun like blistery
type awful things.
Dan: 07:24 I
would argue that there was not a single thing in that, um, in that ingredient
list that he had, the walnuts, the figs and the brew with salt, not a single
one of those as medicine.
Shauna: 07:36 I
mean like if you have a lot of salt, like if you make saltwater, it's like a
natural, amedic, right?
Dan: 07:42 Oh,
I'm sure if you eat lots of figs, it'll make you poop. But I don't know why
that gets to count as medicine.
Shauna: 07:46 Fair
enough. Uh, right. So don't, don't have the room. I'd just say like maybe he,
he died because he used that recipe.
Dan: 07:56 No,
he died because he died in the Mount Vesuvius. He died from breathing in those
fumes.
Dan: 08:13 Oh,
I thought we were talking about Pilny. I have no idea how Mithridates died.
I've never even heard that name until just now.
Shauna: 08:19 What
I thought was cool is, so Mithridates is actually has this mythical antidote
that had some 56 or whatever number of ingredients, but clearly Pliny didn't
find that recipes.
Shauna: 08:36 Yes.
So, um, another version of the story is that that Pompey was the one who had
the recipe and he actually, um, would take this, he would actually use this
poison with a grain of salt. And, um, he would drink that, uh, slowly, every in
order to like prevent against poisoning to become, not susceptible to it
anymore.
Shauna: 09:04 Yeah.
That's the one. And so much of this reminded me of that story actually. I love
it. Uh, okay. So whether the salt mitigated the effects of the poison or made
it easier to swallow, uh, more importantly than the specifics of the story or
the source of the ingredients list is the specifics of the phrase itself. Um,
rather than Cum Grano salis. Uh, what Pliny actually wrote in the book was
addito salis grano, which translates approximately to after adding a grain of
salt or with the addition of a grain of salt. And that's actually more
consistent with classical Latin grammar. So as opposed to our, you know,
European-ish grammar style of, with a grain of salt. So ultimately it's likely
that pliny was using this in a more literal culinary context rather than a
figurative message about spoons full of sugar.
Shauna: 09:58 Yes.
Um, now while that's fun and funny, it actually seems to be the most likely
origin for the combination of the words that turned into the phrase. So yeah,
it's pretty cool. Um, if not the direct source of the idiom, word for word. Um,
yeah, we do know how things can morph and change over time. Um, and the concept
is really what was being passed along.
Dan: 10:19 So
we don't really know where this came from, but it may have its roots in a
misreading of something that pliny wrote.
Shauna: 10:29 Oh,
well it conceptually the, the, the phrase was used from Pliny and continued on
in the Latin. Um, as far as the English phrase though, um, let's get to those
Dietz, the word grain started to be seen in regular use in the English language
around 1200 CE to refer to small particles of just about anything. And then
regular use of our phrase became, began in the 16 hundreds. Oxford English
dictionary gives us the definition with a grain of salt, modern of the Latin
cum grano salis to accept a statement with a certain amount of reserve. Also in
similar phrases. Now, especially with a pinch of salt. In 1647, John Trapp
wrote in a commentary of exposition upon the epistles and the revelation of
John the divine. This is to be taken with a grain of salt.
Shauna: 11:35 Yes,
it is. And in that, you know, order with those specific words. Then again, just
a couple of years later, just sigh as shoot wrote in Sarah and Hagar or
Genesis, the 16th chapter opened in 19 sermons.
Shauna: 11:53 I
agreed. Read them then, but with such a grain of salt as an as intimated. And
so this is the second time that it's being seen, uh, associated with biblical
evaluative writings, uh, like sermon. So I thought that was kind of
interesting. Take all that with a grain of salt. The May 1st, 1846 edition of
the Charlotte journal out of Charlotte, North Carolina shared this story and
this was an exchange in a courtroom. Mr Winthrop says, sir, these hearings the
day after an injury received are to be listened to with an ear almost, if not
altogether closed. These are to be taken with many grains of salt.
Dan: 12:35 I
liked the, I liked the mini grains of salt because it's very, it becomes very
difficult over time to understand an idiom when the idiom is an idiom based off
of another idiom. And so it just gets idiomified as it goes along.
Dan: 13:00 Nope,
Nope. I was perfectly fine with idiomized. The idiomelogical. I don't know what
word you said, but no
Shauna: 13:09 Oh
that's awesome. In 1883 in the American and national journal out of
Philadelphia, there was an article about a gentleman was titled an extremist
and we may add more or less salt to his expressions. I thought that one was
kind of entertaining cause if we were to say something like that today, I don't
think we'd be implying the same thing. Cause here it's kind of this idea that
his expressions were overly dramatic. Right. But salty expressions today would
be like, you know, kind of bitter sass or something.
Shauna: 13:50 In
the Eagle, the June 5th, 1895 edition out of silver city, New Mexico, the big
reward has not been claimed. The statement that he is dead may be taken with a
large sized grain of salt. And that one, again, kind of adding a little bit
more emphasis to the phrase. Then in the December 22nd, 1899 holiday supplement
edition of the Lincoln County leader, uh, this is out of Toledo in Lincoln
County, Oregon. And this is a short little short little poem called the wife on
new years. When she hears him say he'll swear off every fault, she takes it in
a quiet way and with a grain of salt.
Shauna: 14:42 A
little further on 1908 in the Athenaeum was, this was a literary magazine out
of London. Our reasons for not accepting the authors pictures of early Ireland
without many grains of salt. Um, I want to visit Ireland and every story I've
heard describes it with this like total beauty and like this just like sounds
like a chill place to go. But now I'm wondering what this person might've
claimed that made people question them so much. So the usage and adaptations or
hyperboles of the phrase continue at all the way through today in the United
States. Um, as I learned however, and how you might have noticed the phrases
slightly different across the pond where the more common version is to take
things with a pinch of salt. So here are two examples of that.
Dan: 15:32 I'm
sure our, our, our new listeners will recognize our Americanized accent. So
when we say across the pond, we mean England, not England coming across the
pond to us or the UK or great Britain. I apologize. I don't know the
difference. I can't be bothered. I'm pretty sure the world only revolves around
America. That's what I was taught in school.
Dan: 15:56 Oh,
Oh yes. In America. We also apologize for things when we're not actually
apologizing at all.
Shauna: 16:02 Oh
goodness. All right. In 1948, Frank Richard Cowell wrote Cicero and the Roman
Republic. A more critical spirit slowly developed so that Cicero and his
friends took more than the proverbial pinch of salt before swallowing
everything written by these earlier authors. And then in 1949, Victor Grove
wrote in language bar. Even if we accept such a statement with a pinch of salt,
it is an indisputable fact that its writer did look upon Latin as a guiding
mistress despite how many centuries this phrase has been around. The overall
change has been fairly minimal. Um, but it is clear that whether using a grain
of pinch or entire buckets, salt issued to help one discern the validity of
another's claims.
Dan: 16:52 Well,
today's show is sponsored by our patrons. According to the Oxford English
dictionary says that 13 hundreds the word patron has meant a person standing in
a role of oversight, protection, or sponsorship to another. Patron comes from
the Latin word for father patior. Then becoming Patronis, meaning champion or
protector, then to patron, meaning one who sponsors something like a patron of
the arts. Leonardo DaVinci was able to make his art thanks to patrons like
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Shauna: 17:48 So
as said, one of the really neat things that I found is that the phrase
continues to be used in multiple forms. Um, and over the last several decades
especially, um, I found examples of grain of salt, pinch of salt and Cum Grano,
salis all being used on social media, in articles and on all kinds of
platforms. One great item I found is the popular meme. That whole keep calm
and.
Shauna: 18:17 And
this one, uh, in this case it said keep calm and Cum grano Salis or the keep
calm in English, so.
Shauna: 18:30 Cum
Grano salis is also a restaurant in San Paolo de Civi Tata, a town in Southeast
Italy. Um, the menu looks pretty amazing. It's got lots of fresh seafood and
pasta dishes and their hours are 11:00 AM to 3:00 PM and 7:00 PM to 10:30 PM.
Dan: 18:48 Oh
my goodness. I listen, I love the idea of a siesta. I really do. Except when
I'm visiting Italy and I'm all like what do I do from like three to seven,
right. Cause I'm hungry and stuff and like I want to go to the Galileo museum
but it's close. I want to do this or that or Oh my goodness. I think I just sat
and drank Magners everywhere. That's pretty much what I did.
Shauna: 19:11 Yeah.
Cause like pretty much bars are open pubs. Yeah. Cum Grano Salis is also a play
that was performed May 18th, 2019 at 7:00 PM there was only one performance
Shauna: 19:33 You
know what? I actually only use 24 hour formats usually and so I was trying to
translate on the fly.
Dan: 19:39 We
saw 21 nine and thought 9, and 19 is seven very circuitous way to get to that
and probably it's not even relevant frankly. A very interesting look into the
way your brain works,
Shauna: 19:56 Yeah.
It's weird in here. Um, no but 9:00 PM which actually is kind of significant
cause it's like nighttime was the point in fortress Cogito. This was a site
specific play which will change your perception of the Castillo fortress and
introduce you to the history, cultural heritage and artistic works of stone in
a spectacular blend of audio. Visual technology is interactive installations,
impressive projections, light show pyrotechnics and live performances. A
spectacular sensory experience which transports you to a dreamlike place where
time has stopped.
Shauna: 20:38 Maybe
the tourist board of stone shares. It is our great honor to host you here in
the unique environment, which stone can offer. This medieval little town with
whose history reaches back as far as the 14th century. It is a small town with
the longest Stonewall in Europe with narrow quiet streets, Noble ancient
houses, and with traces of ancient cultures. Its former value as a salt city
gets confirmed even today in the plants of the oldest active Saltworks in the
world. These salt works have remained faithful to the tradition and to the
natural way of salt production, which has not changed since remote ages.
Dan: 21:23 what
was the, how long was the longest Stonewall in Europe? Did they, did you see
that in your research?
Dan: 21:30 Oh,
that doesn't seem that long. Nope. It doesn't seem like that long. I stopped
and went, wait. Yeah. No, still no. Five kilometers really isn't that long
unless I'm running it. Five kilometers isn't that long.
Dan: 21:47 I
suppose if it's in Europe, there's a lot of places that are really tiny. I mean
you can drive for two hours in Europe and be in like eight different States or
you could do that in Texas and not even be out of the same quadrant of Texas.
Shauna: 21:59 All
right. Let's see. A couple of examples of pinch of salt in 2003 the song a Wolf
at the door by Radiohead, which comes from the album hall, hail to the thief
and it includes the lyrics. Take it with the love it's given. Take it with a
pinch of salt, take it to the tax man. Let me back. Let me back. I promise to
be good. Yeah. The lyrics don't make any sense and I couldn't share any before
or after that cause they have too many curse words,
Dan: 22:26 right?
Oh no. I mean Radiohead. Lyrics oftentimes don't make sense when ti, well, a
lot like an idiom when taken by themselves, they don't make a lot of sense. But
then when you put the whole song together it suddenly there's at least a theme
there. It's kind of like Bob Dylan.
Shauna: 22:41 Yeah.
Hmm. Good point. A pinch of salt is also a page on Twitter. It's @apinchofsalt
just to speech and language therapists, salts attempting to be the change we
want to see.
Shauna: 22:57 And
now one last example of a grain of salt and this is a blog called a grain of
salt and Felicity shares in her introduction. What do I want to write about? I
want to be a reminder that we should take time to think things through for
ourselves and not just take the opinions of others I've seen in every type of
person, the desire to keep what they have and to be content with it. If they
strive after something more, they might lose everything. If you aren't
striving, you aren't living and if you aren't living, you're dying. The
warning, take it with a grain of salt, gets across what I'm thinking.
Dan: 23:31 That
is a very popular opinion of life. Not, not one I personally share, but I uh, I
appreciate Felicity's ability to, uh, make clear what she believes.
Shauna: 23:45 I
even just, her, her short introduction was pretty fascinating and she's clearly
on a journey of, of self discovery. This phrase is really wonderful, the fun
history and the use in multiple countries for centuries. And that shared
understanding. Um, it just makes it a great idiom. I'm really thankful to the
listener who suggested this one. I've had it on my list since we started this
whole adventure, but I just didn't know if I'd find that much. Um, I was
pleasantly surprised. And so while typically we talk about plinty the elder and
his unique ability to entirely miss the point, but this time he actually seems
to have provided us with a phrase that is lasting millennia. So good job.
Plenty on that one. Um, so, Oh yeah. And now I'm ready to travel the world. Uh,
I know at least one phrase that most people will understand and I only have to
learn the Latin. So there you go. Uh, usually idioms though are released so
specific to an area that they are total jibberish to people from other areas.
And this is a sort of the opposite because it has managed to embed itself into
so many languages and countries and it's truly amazing and um, one of the ways
in which I find those commonalities across languages and cultures to be rather
comforting. Well that about wraps us up for today. Thank you so much for
joining us. We've only got two more episodes left in 2019 and season two of our
show. Thank you so much to everyone for listening and supporting our show.
Dan: 25:24 Word
of mouth is still the best way to grow a podcast. So please tell your friends
and family about bunny trails. If you want to chat more about the show or
phrases and their stories in general, you can join the community on Patrion.
You'll find the link to that and everything else we do@bunnytrailspod.com.
Thanks again for joining us. We'll talk to you again next week. Until then,
remember,
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