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Dan: 00:00 Welcome
to bunny trails, a whimsical adventure of idioms and other turns of phrase. I'm
Dan Pugh
Shauna: 00:04 and
I'm Shauna Harrison. Each week we delve into the origin and history of an idiom
or other turn of phrase and discuss how it's been used over time. This week I'm
using the way back machine to remember my own history. Not really, but it would
be cool if like, you know, part of my history had been captured on the
internet, but I don't, I'm not important enough for them.
Dan: 00:24 I
know I can tell you right now that I'm 100% glad that I was born and raised in
the era before the internet, so that or before social media, more importantly,
I mean there was the internet of course when I was a kid. Uh, but I was an
adult before I ever got on the internet, mostly owing growing up in a very
small, uh, farm town in rural Texas. But, uh, otherwise I am so glad that I did
not have social media until I was an adult because Holy crap, the kind of
trouble that we got into just on, on like chat rooms, you know that are in the
late nineties was plenty enough for me to be thankful that I don't, if my every
move was documented and every picture I've taken and everything I've eaten and
Oh my goodness. So anyway, you go back and be wax poetically nostalgic about
your, uh, you know, childhood. But I'm just going to sit here and think of my
lucky stars that I was not around as a child, as a child during the social
intranet.
Shauna: 01:24 Yeah.
Fair enough. All right. So when I was a teenager, I had a best friend and I
spent all of my time with her. Um, we even talked about going to the same college,
you know, like super close. We lived in a small town. It was like one of those
one streetlight kind of towns, you know,
Dan: 01:54 I
thought you meant lamp like a street light or something. And I'm like no, stop
it right there. The whole, there's like there's a Kansas highway that runs
through that town you grew up in and it's, you know, there lights along the
whole thing.
Dan: 02:08 It's
still the one traffic light town actually, unless they've put one in since last
time I was there.
Shauna: 02:10 They
added another. So there, there's more than one. I think there are three
actually. And they have like some.
Shauna: 02:16 Yeah.
There's a crosswalk to buy the miniature Dillons type store that, that's their
Kroger type, whatever.
Shauna: 02:32 Yeah.
Uh, it was, uh, it was awesome. Anyways, so, um, there was this one afternoon
we were hanging out at her house and we were supposed to stay in the
neighborhood. And so you can probably tell where this going. Yeah, we didn't
stay in the neighborhood. We decided to walk to the dairy King. Ah, yes. I said
King, uh, and get ice cream and Charlies.
Dan: 02:53 I
believe that dairy queen would not have sued them for trademark infringement or
something.
Dan: 03:00 Yeah.
It's still there now, although they call themselves DK now, so maybe they did
get in trouble. I don't know.
Shauna: 03:07 I
dunno man. Okay. So Charlie is a French fries covered in cheese and chili, like
chili and nacho cheese sauce,
Dan: 03:15 right?
Yeah. Also one of our, uh, actually our very first patron Charlie Moore. I
don't know if there's any relation to that. You think was the Charlie named
after Charlie Moore.
New
Speaker: 03:24 Charlie
Moore hit us up, let us know, man. That's crazy. Probably. Almost, certainly
not. Probably not.
Shauna: 03:33 Yes.
And uh, yeah, so a Charlie, not, not Charlie the patron. She's awesome. But uh,
Charlie, the food is both disgusting and delicious. Nice. Yeah.
Shauna: 03:44 right.
So by the time we got back to her house, her mom was waiting on the front
porch, you know, the little Tappy foot going in and just staring us down with
the phone in her hand. Oh my. Yeah. So Ms. Jenkins had called her and said,
Mrs. Jones, those two girls, your red head in that blonde girl always together
thick as thieves. Well, I saw them walking down the street not 10 minutes ago.
They are just the prettiest girls. I'd hate for them to get in any trouble.
Which is, you know,
Dan: 04:10 you
grew up in like Mayberry USA. Oh yeah. But with phones. Well ma'am, I just saw
them girls walking down the street. I wanted to make sure you knew they were
out there. I don't want them getting any trouble. You never know what those two
girls, they're good looking girls. I don't want them getting any kind of
trouble.
Shauna: 04:33 Pretty
much. I think we tried that one other time and then that was it. We were like,
Nope, not happening. Every time got caught. Yeah. Nice.
Dan: 04:42 Nice.
So, uh, I did hear an idiom in there thick as thieves. Shall I assume that
that's what we're going for.
Shauna: 04:51 This
one thick as thieves is generally used to say that to people or very close to
one another usually isn't used in a romantic way and it's, it oftentimes
indicates that the relationship is somewhat isolated or independent from other
relationships, friendships, things like that. Okay, interesting. Merriam
Webster provides the definition very close and secretive. And with the example,
they were thick as thieves for weeks, which made us wonder what they were doing.
Dan: 05:20 Ah,
okay. I, uh, I would imagine that the ocean's 11 crowd was like that thick as
thieves and everybody was wondering what they were except in that one. They're
literal thieves.
Shauna: 05:29 Yeah.
Yeah. Actual thieves. A popular story for thick as thieves is that the idiom
originated in the 18 hundreds at that time, thieves often worked together in
gangs and were extremely close and telling each other everything and completely
relying on one another and nobody outside of their group. Um, so this is like
sounds fun and clever.
Dan: 05:53 I
found, I found that origin stories, uh, that I on the internet are never wrong.
Never. Right. Never ever. Right.
Shauna: 06:01 And
like the truth of history is that we don't usually have such a clear picture of
what actually happened.
Shauna: 06:22 So
first things first, the phrase, got it start well before that. All right. Yeah.
Well before the 18 hundreds, however, it was in a slightly different form. So
18 hundreds is where some of this kind of picked up, but what kind of walk
through it here? Um, one might think that the key word in the phrase is
thieves, but one would be wrong. And I was one after some searching online
through dictionaries and histories for thick as thieves or phrases containing
thieves. Uh, yeah, I, I finally found out, uh, that I was looking in the wrong
direction, so I was barking up the wrong tree. So as it turns out, the linchpin
of the phrase is actually the word thick. Um, thick has had multiple meanings,
both literal and figurative over the years. In fact, I still hear it used to
describe an individual as um, possessing less than average intelligence.
Shauna: 07:29 words
are hard (finally back on track). Possessing less than average intelligence.
Gotcha.
Shauna: 07:38 thick
in the head kind of thing. Yeah. Okay. The Oxford English dictionary provides
multiple definitions for thick as well. Number 10 of those is the figurative
form of the sense of the individual things collectively existing or occurring
in large numbers in a relatively small space or at short intervals, densely
arranged, crowded hints, numerous abundant, plentiful. An example of this, the
enemy army bore down upon them two massive columns thick with soldiers.
Dan: 08:12 I
could see where Thick in this case would also be thin. Ah Bah, thick in this
case would also not be thin. That's literally the opposite. Thick in this case
would also be dense and dense is also another word for someone with less than
stellar intelligence. Yeah, sure is. We have a lot of words that are bullying
people. What is going on with our language?
Dan: 08:40 instead
of just going, Oh man, you are stupid. They're just like, Oh, you're dense or
listen, no, listen,
Shauna: 08:56 So
that's thick, used in, in this way, it's considered to be an literal sense of
thick because it's that densely packed. So they're saying that's, that's
literal. And then the figurative form of that refers to close in confidence and
association. Intimate or familiar. And this is often in similes with allusion
to other senses. For example, as thick as glue, as thick as incl weavers, as
thick as peas in a shell, or as two thieves, as thick as three in a bed and so
on.
Dan: 09:28 Is
that because beds were small or is this some sort of a Manasseh trois thing
that I'm not aware of?
Shauna: 09:36 But
the truth of the matter is just if you imagine three people in a small bed,
that's just really all, all about what it is.
Shauna: 09:48 Yeah.
Um, so here are some examples of thick used in this figurative sense around
1756, John Nichols in literary anecdotes of the 18th century. Yes. Said he, we
begin now though contrary to my expectations and without my seeking to be
pretty thick. And I thank God who reconciles me to my adversaries. And then
later in 1781, this is in selected papers from the Twining family. He and I
were quite thick. We wrote together frequently.
Dan: 10:21 Um,
this one they use thick in quotations, meaning they want you to know that they
don't mean it in the way you might think.
Shauna: 10:27 Yes,
exactly. And so there's that one too. It indicates that this was because he
wrote together with someone, so he was with them a lot. Not in physical
proximity are tightly packed, but the time spent together also starts to pull
into this as far as that definition in 1802, Charles Lamb and Mary Anne lamb.
And these are the letters of Charles and Mary Anne lamb.
Shauna: 11:24 in
1820, Walter Scott wrote the monastery a romance. That's right, Captain..you
twa will be as thick as three in a bed an' ance ye forgather. So that one might
be a little bit more. On the.
Dan: 11:41 That
one might be a little bit more on than on the nose of a really, really fun side
of that. if that's your thing. Yeah,
Shauna: 11:50 but
it's definitely a using it. So this one, a different form of that, that three
in a bed, which is kind of fun. And that's actually the only one that I, that I
found with that specific usage. And there were others that were close, but I
wasn't able to pull the context of those. So it's just, you know, not quite
enough to,
Dan: 12:07 yeah,
it's really interesting to me that, cause I would've thought thieves was the, I
mean, I know you've said this, but I would've thought thieves would have been
the, the root there, but you know, I get it now, the thick meaning there. And
I've never heard thick as three in a bed before. But that's a, I mean, I, I
mean it's, it's apt. I obviously we don't use it today often, but it's very,
that's a very interesting concept there. The other one that you mentioned, uh,
and I'm very glad, I'm hoping you're going to say something about it later.
Incl weavers, cause I don't have any idea what that is, but man, I was just, I
was like, please do all that is good in the world. Please tell me. inkle
weavers. Okay, well if we'll get to it, I will wait patiently.
Shauna: 12:46 All
right. So in 1836, Harriet Grandville, um, her letters were published. These
were letters from 1810 to 1845 and one of them had the sentence, he is thick
with all the new ministers. Oh, okay. So somebody has got it has got the in
crowd. Yeah. In 1869 in Routledge's every boy's annual, we soon grew as thick
as inkle weavers.
Dan: 13:13 There's
that phrase again. One art. Okay, now I don't know where you were going to do
it, but now you're doing it now what are inkle weavers.
Dan: 13:20 Yeah,
that was exactly where I went with this. I was like, okay, I have one question
after all this research. Yeah. Right. So, but I do like that this establishes
that thieves is not that representation of the closeness, but instead of the
thick as. Yeah. Uh, so where do you go to find out what inkle weavers are?
Dan: 13:41 I
mean, I would go to the Oxford English dictionary cause I'm a reputable human.
What did you do?
Dan: 13:46 I
went to urban dictionary. Okay. Here's my reason. Right. I went there first
because I was a little bit concerned that I might have gotten this into some
sort of predicament by having an episode about a word that totally
inappropriate. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, I better check this out. Uh, however
Shauna: 14:06 incl
means to have an inkling to think vaguely. He always inkles that something
forboding is approaching him or to crash a party. Her, what did you do last
night? Him? Well, I was driving along with John and we decided to inkle at
Jennifer's, her, you -bad word-.
Shauna: 14:28 So
I, um, there could be something there, but it's more like crash a party. Like
we're going to go.
Shauna: 14:56 Yes.
All right. So of course, then I went to Oxford English dictionary where I found
the Inkle Weaver noun, a Weaver of inkle, or linen tape.
Dan: 15:15 He's
still very unhelpful. This is one of my biggest pet peeves in my dictionaries
is when they use the word they're defining in the definition. And I'm just
like, you can't do that.
Shauna: 15:26 That
like a, I mean you like, maybe you start there, but then you need to tell us
what inkle is please. All right. Yeah, that doesn't tell us what inkle is at
all. But this is one of those times that the visual medium is really helpful.
Alas, I cannot share that with you here, but we can post a picture or a thing
on our Patrion so that you can see an image of this. But okay. So many people
have seen items that are created using inkle weaving, and there's still currently
a process that's used today. I think it's even a machine process now, uh, to do
the same thing. Uh, but these include belts and camera straps, bracelets,
ribbon trim, um, and all kinds of other things like that. So an.
Shauna: 16:10 Yes.
It's um, it's multiple things. Uh, an inkle loom consists of a wooden frame
with a series of dowels extending horizontally. And then there's some yarn that
is across all of those horizontal, uh, bars and then other yarn or string stuff
that is woven back and forth to create a pattern in different colors or um,
materials types.
Dan: 16:36 Shauna
really good at radio because she's gesticulating very hard for you to be able
to see what she's doing with her hands. But news flash, for those of you at
home, I am sitting right next to her and still can't figure out what she's
trying to say.
Shauna: 16:48 Oh
goodness. Uh, so many people, if you've seen a friendship bracelet, that's one
of those flat wide ones and it kind of has a pattern to it. Inkle weaving looks
similar to that when it's completed, but it's not made of knots. It's composed
of woven back and forth threads. Inkle can also be the yarn that's used and
it's traditionally made of linen. Um, so and then a wide variety of patterns in
different things can be made with this type of weaving. Uh, but when people
were weaving like this, you've got a somewhat small loom. They came, you know,
varied in size and everything. But if you think of textile mills and those
types of things in the 17 hundreds, uh, those people were very, very close
quarters, um, even closer than they would be today. And how their work in their
work environment
Dan: 17:38 would
people that will there the thick word as well. But the inkle weavers are so
close together.
Shauna: 17:43 Yes.
And they spend so much time together working in those close quarters. They get
to know each other really well, which is just what happens. And so that is
where that, that concept comes in.
Dan: 17:53 Awesome.
You should just go a Google inkle loom or inkle weavers or whatever. You'll see
pictures of it. It'll make more sense to you at that point. In fact, if you've
already done that, kudos to you. And if you didn't, I'll give you permission to
stop now and figure it out. Otherwise, you can go to our Patreon and we'll have
a link on our Twitter or you could just go to our Patreon
patreon.com/bunnytrailspod shameless plug.
Shauna: 18:16 In
1738, Jonathan Swift wrote a complete collection of genteel and ingenious
conversation according to the most polite mode and method now used at court,
and in the best companies of England I've referenced this book before and every
time I'm like, I don't know what part of this to leave out, but that's a
ridicoulous title.
Shauna: 18:37 Oh,
it says she and you were as great as to inkle weavers. All right, so this is
1738, so definitely before, um, the 18 hundreds, but the, so it's not the same
phrase that thick as thieves, but it is how that phrase came to be. So that's
kind of where it started. Somewhere around that timeframe or even in the late
16 hundreds, most of the usage of thick as something actually occurred in the
United States and that did transition into that thick as thieves and that's
where, how it was mostly used and particularly more recently. So in 1948 in the
evening star out of Washington DC, uh, there was an article called down on the
farm and it says, isn't science wonderful? Now don't get me wrong, we farmers
go in for science right here on the old farm. Scientists are thick as thieves.
Agriculturists, botanist, (struggling)Agro-agro-nomics I don't know,
agronomists, engineers, all kinds. One of our props down here, we called the
sun doctor.
Dan: 19:42 That
was nice. Like he just, he leads speeded professors right there,I love it,
props one of our props down here.
Shauna: 19:49 He
measures the sunshine, catches the rain drops. He keeps facts and figures on
the wind. He is always taking the temperature like a mother fussing over her
first born.
Shauna: 20:06 I
did love this one. Yeah, there's those, they're very funny. How many people
are, are back and forth on the science thing, but uh, even farmers who are kind
of scientists.
Dan: 20:16 Right?
Yeah, I found that fascinating. I mean not just kinda like farm is one of the
most farming today at least. And obviously even in the 1940s this is, which I
didn't realize it was so scientific back then, but yeah, I mean it is, it is a
major science. It's pretty impressive. That's why you have a, you know,
agriculture school is like a Texas a A M or a Kansas state. You know, those are
a couple of schools that are big ag schools and that is a large portion of
their programs are basically the science of farming and the science of getting
food and agriculture food to people. Cause if a, we didn't have farmers, we
would not exist.
Dan: 20:58 Well,
today's show is sponsored by our patrons. According to the Oxford English
dictionary since the 13 hundreds the word patron has meant a person's deigning
in a role of oversight, protection or sponsorship to another. Patron comes from
the Latin word for father pater. Then becoming Patronus, meaning champion or
protector than to patron, meaning one who sponsors something like a patron of
the arts. Leonardo DaVinci was able to make his art thanks to patrons like
Medici and Ceasier Borgian. Bunny trails is able to continue things to our
awesome patrons, including Pat Rowe and Mary Lopez. If you want to become a
patron of bunny trails and get cool perks like early access to episodes behind
the scenes content, monthly mini episodes and more, you can visit us at
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Shauna: 21:49 thick
as thieves has been used as the title for many, uh, current or recent, uh,
things like movies, books and so on. Uh, most of those movies were actually
based on books. So I went ahead and referenced, uh, one of the books here. Uh,
but there were, there are multiple movies. Morgan Freeman starring in one, and,
uh, just anyway, a large group of them and most of them with a, uh, ocean's 11
esque style storyline. And
Dan: 22:19 I
think, you know what, actually, honestly, that's why, probably why I think or
why I thought that thieves was the route here. I couldn't quite put my finger
on it until just now. But most of the books or movies or anything that I've
seen were thick as thieves has come up, has focused more on the thief aspect,
you know, uh, not, not the thick aspect. So that's very, I mean, the thick is
there and it's almost implied, but it's the thieves that they really focus on.
But maybe they're just being, maybe they're being fun, but I think it's kind of
shifted the way that phrase is used over time now, because in, in, at least in
my consciousness, thieves was the, the predominant, you know? Yeah.
Shauna: 22:57 Yes.
And I think that's the case for a lot of people. They just kind of connect with
that thieves part. They understand that, what that means. And, um, but you
know, that's kind of the way some of these, these phrases work. So in a more
recent book, 2007 is when this was released, thick as thieves, a brother, a
sister, a true story of two turbulent lives. This is a memoir about two
siblings who loved each other. Sometimes the thrill of the shoplift, the power
of the written word, the agony of addiction, and the joy of someone who
understands you and still stays true. Uh, so this is actually, so these are
memoirs. The author Steve Geng, uh, wrote these memoirs about himself and his
sister. So kind of interesting. It sounded like a fascinating story
Shauna: 23:46 in
March, 2014 this is from the, about the history of emotions blog and the
article is titled thick as thieves. Dr. Helen Rogers is reader in 19th century
studies at Liverpool, John Moores university and the author of the blog
conviction stories from a 19th century prison. She is also one of the editors
of the journal of Victorian culture in this post for the history of emotions
blog, she writes about her research into juvenile criminals, including their
friendships and tattoos. Subjects she also speaks about in episode six of 500
years of friendship, she begins the post, we'll never know who coined the
phrase as thick as thieves to describe clothes and furtive acquaintances. But
the phrase had currency by the late 1830s when it began to appear in fiction
and newspapers. The timing is striking for, it coincides with growing cultural
anxieties about the rise of a criminal class inhabiting a clandestine world of
hardened offenders, bound by evil associations and bad connections.
Dan: 24:48 That's
interesting because the etymology doesn't quite, doesn't quite line up with the
origins of, for her assertion there, but it could definitely account for the
rise in its popularity in the 18 hundreds though.
Shauna: 25:00 Absolutely.
And this is one of those too where you, there you see a lot of um, usage for
phrases like this that's outside of the, you know, kind of normal, um,
literature and things like that. But you may be used in multiple ways at the
same time and bring in those other words into it. Thieves and inkle weavers and
everything else. Uh, you know, kind of has a, has a play on that company that
is up and running today is called thick as thieves. And this is a Melbourne
based touring an events company at thick as thieves. We scour the globe for the
most exciting underground artists to bring you the freshest tour and roster in
Australia.
Shauna: 25:44 That's
truly started to say apparently we're dedicated to raising the vibration and
everything we do thick as thieves is also a pop hip hop band based out of Los
Angeles. And um, they have opened four national favorites such as imagine
dragons and 21 pilots and Sean Kingston, some many others. And uh, they've also
played in venues like the house of blues and whiskey, a Gogo and the Roxy. So
they're, sounds like they're doing really well. Nice. Yeah. As thick as thieves
is a hard rock band. And this is Arizona's premiere rock and rugged five piece.
Shauna: 26:24 .
Yes, they were formed in 2012 and a, they've performed at a lot of festivals,
showcases and rock shows.
Shauna: 26:34 I
like how this phrase has kind of a journey through the centuries. Um, and it's
really fun to me, but a lot of quirky words in there and versions, you know,
going back through time, I love feeling like I can be a part of a timeframe and
get like a really kind of understand a time period or the experiences that some
people may have had in that time. And uh, I dunno, there's so many things about
our lives that haven't changed that much. So I really like thick as thieves.
Uh, I think that it's moved to a mostly positive connotation. Um, so while it
means that two people or maybe more are intimate in a slightly secretive way,
it isn't a bad thing and it just, um, like a really great friendship or
closeness that's something we should be celebrating, I think. So I'm gonna keep
using it, uh, very happily the way that I have been. That about wraps this up
for today. Thank you so much for joining us. We want to thank everyone who
talked about the show last week using the bunny trails. Hashtag word of mouth
and personal experiences are the best way to grow a podcast and your help is
greatly appreciated.
Dan: 27:43 If
you want to chat more about the show or phrases in their stories in general,
you can join the community on Patrion. You'll find the link to that and
everything else we do@bunnytrailspod.com. Thanks again for joining us. We'll
talk to you again next week. Until then,
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