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We used Temi to auto transcribe this, then Dan went through and checked it based on the show notes. He tried really hard on it, but this kind of stuff isn't his specialty. So if you notice anything confusing, please comment on this post so Dan can look at it and clarify anything.
Dan: 00:00 Welcome
to bunny trails, a whimsical adventure of idioms and other turns of phrase. I'm
Dan Pugh
Shauna: 00:05 and
I'm Shauna Harrison. Each week we delve into the origin and history of an idiom
or other turn of phrase and discuss how it's been used over time. Dan, I
struggled to come up with an idiom this week, so I was hoping I could pick your
brain
Dan: 00:20 Um...
that's... We... Don't normally wing it on the show, so, oh wait, I get it. I
see. I see what you did there. Yeah, so we're doing, pick your brain.
Shauna: 00:31 yeah.
Yeah. Pick your brain. If a person asks to pick someone's brain or brains, they
are seeking ideas or information from that, someone in order to use it for
themselves. So when I really started thinking about this idiom, I wondered why
this specific combination of words, why not pluck or pull or collect, gather,
harvest or any other words?
Shauna: 00:56 No,
I'm... Only a little bit, but also why brain rather than head or mind? We've
seen head used a lot to kind of have that same meaning. So I started with the
word pick. And here's something really cool. At least if you're, if you're a
word nerd
Shauna: 01:24 Oh,
so according to the Oxford English dictionary, this is the entry for the word
pick. Ah, this is p-i-c-k pick "origin apparently formed within English by
conversion etymology apparently from the word Pike. And this is the word for a
point or spike or an implement having this." So this is kind of rare. Most
of our, uh, wonderful English words are, that are as old as this one actually
came to us by way of another language or maybe several. So I thought it was
really cool. So when exactly did we first see the word pick? A pick was
attested in English text around 1200 meaning to apply a pointed object to, and
related senses. It often was used in discussing birds or other animals and it
meant to pierce or strike with its beak or mouth parts. Uh, kind of like to
peck or peck at,
Shauna: 02:20 Yeah.
You know what it... Actually we're, we're good here. Uh, so this reference was
in a, this is about 1200 in the Ancrene Wisse, also known as the Ancrene
Riwle... I can't say that... R-I-W-L-E, or guide for anchoresses. And uh, this
is an anonymous monastic rule or manual for female anchoress that was composed
or eh, again, around 1200.
Shauna: 02:51 Ah,
okay. So that's, this is the kind of a female version of a monk, if you will,
or somebody who's essentially removed themselves from society in order to live
like a committed, pious, whatever life like committed.
Dan: 03:04 At
first I thought you were describing a hermit or a hermit-ess? I assumed a monk
and hermit and those types of words were gender neutral. But apparently it,
well, at least sex neutral on that front. Not Gender so much, but apparently an
anchoress is an old timey word for lady monk.
Shauna: 03:27 Somebody
who's well retreated from society, Like geared towards mindfulness and prayer
type thing. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. SORTA hermit monk, uh,
Dan: 03:39 a
hermit monk? Wait, is that a character... I think I might play a hermit monk in
one of my DnD campaigns.
Shauna: 03:49 So
here's our quote, "The backbiter… beaks with his black bill of quitch
carrions, as he that is the devils corbin of hell; what would he pick and to
tear with his bill stinking, rotten flesh."
Shauna: 04:09 Yeah.
I actually think this was referring to just crows, like black crows. Cause
quitch is sort of a like grass, so carrions of the grass and black bill... I
dunno.
Dan: 04:20 Well
yeah, carrion is something that would eat stinking, rotten flesh. So yeah, I
mean it makes sense. Like turkey vultures.
Shauna: 04:24 So,
but I, I just, I love this whole quote though. I like all the words that are in
it. So this was also used to refer to pick axes and tools at that time at pike
was a Dutch middle Dutch word for pickaxe.
Dan: 04:39 Sure.
I know what a pickaxe is, I've, I've played Minecraft. I have a diamond pickaxe
that has Fortune III on it. It's the great... And Unbreakable II. It's the
greatest.
Shauna: 04:52 I
have to say aside, no. As a graphic designer, Minecraft is like the best as
like the simple design. Like you know, that's a pick ax. It's awesome.
Interestingly to me, the figurative uses for pick to mean gather or harvest or
select things like that or were actually older than some of the literal uses.
So aside from pickaxes and tools like that specific literal meaning, the other
literal uses like separating by pulling as in pick apart or something like
that. Those didn't show up until the 15 hundreds
Dan: 05:24 gotcha.
I can't think of a gathering and harvesting now without thinking of the segment
in our 50th episode that The Endless Knot did on carpe diem. And so that always
pops into my mind and literally anytime I hear the word gather and harvest
together, it makes me think of that. So yeah, absolutely. You should check out
our 50th episode if you haven't already. And listene to that segment by well
all of the segments frankly, but especially the one by, by The Endless Knot
about carpe diem cause it was great. So good.
Shauna: 06:07 That's
terrible. A volume of vocabularies, we find the phrase 'pick the flax'. In this
case and continuing through to now, pick was used to mean: "To detach and
take (something) from where it grows, lies, or is attached"
Dan: 06:24 Oh
yeah, yeah. That's how we, we still use that word. Yeah. Picking flowers and
stuff like that. Picking your nose, that is a different thing. You're picking
things out of your nose but not your nose itself.
Shauna: 06:36 So
interestingly then picking your nose would be a literal use of picking where
picking a flower is a figurative use of it.
Shauna: 06:49 So
today it's used more commonly to pick with fingers, like you were saying, to
pluck or gather growing flowers, fruit off of a tree. Um, and so the figurative
use of pick to mean taking and gathering, um, and, and the way that it's used
in pick your brain came out of this definition. So the other key word in our
phrase is brain. And, uh, this question was actually way easier to answer. Uh,
the concept has been around for centuries, millennia, even two and a half kilo
years, if you will. I just wanted to say kiloyears
Shauna: 07:29 I
don't know. I could have made it up or I saw it and decided it was good. Um, I
mean, words belong to their users, so...
Shauna: 07:38 So
Hippocrates believed the brain was the seat of intelligence and that was in the
fourth century BCE.
Dan: 07:46 I
mean, in fairness Hippocrates believed a lot of stuff that not all of it was
true, but I'm going to give him this one. Yeah,
Shauna: 07:52 another
millennium. And then some prior to this, the ancient Egyptians had a hieroglyph
for the physical object of the brain or that region of the body. That space,
Shauna: 08:07 the
brain itself, like they didn't, I mean, okay. The concept of it being the seat
of intelligence or the mind and that kind of thing wasn't there for the
Egyptians, but they did have a hieroglyphs specifically for that body part,
which I thought was pretty cool. That's a long time.
Dan: 08:21 Yeah,
don't they? Well, yeah, don't they? Wouldn't they like do somebody special
there when they did mummification or something?
Shauna: 08:45 That
was like 1700 BCE. So a long time ago that we had identified the brain as a
thing and then, you know, the fourth century BCE is when the concept of it
being the area of where our intelligence or our consciousness is kind of
seated. Isn't that it's a good word for it I guess.
Shauna: 09:06 So,
uh, so, but the brain, the English word showed up in the mid eight hundreds,
uh, with this definition, "the human brain considered as the center of
mental activity, the organ of thought, memory or imagination. Also in plural as
brains." Uh, it was around the same time that the, the physical body part,
the brain showed up in the English lexicon as well. So thanks to King Alfred,
we can track this usage, uh, back to about 850 or 900 common era in Gregory's
Pastoral Care, "that thickening dark hair on head that brings forth in
purifying counsel that growth shine over the brain and his evil actions not
any, be aware." Okay. This is a whole lot and this is a translation of a
translation, uh, because this is old English old/middle English. But, uh, the
way I interpreted this, and, uh, some other scholars too who are experts,
unlike me, they read that as essentially saying, so this, uh, the child that
is, that is yours that you've brought up or are bringing up and you provide
ongoing the purifying counsel. So you are giving them a clear, uh, path, uh,
then the growth that raising up that you provide enlightens the mind in
essence, and then their evil actions are not seen. They don't... They don't do
bad things.
Dan: 10:37 Yeah.
The Bible has a phrase like that too. The Christian Bible or something about
train a child on the way they should go and when they are old, they'll not
depart from it. Which is crap. It's crap. But I mean it's whatever,
Dan: 10:52 Sure.
Yeah. I do feel obligated now to say that. Ah, well, yes, true, teach kids when
they're young, you know, to be good people and that kind of stuff. And that's
great.
Dan: 11:03 It's
just that when they're older, there's so many other things that can, uh,
influence them throughout their lives and livelihoods. So I don't mean to
diminish the roles of parents or whoever's raising kids, but definitely the
implication that the child will stick with that their whole life regardless of
what else happens to them or what are the things that go through. I don't know
if that's, that's where I think that's crap.
Shauna: 11:44 Well,
actually here, here we are. We're ready for our idiom, we've established 'pick'
and 'brain', and that brings us to pick a person's brains. "Uh, this is to
elicit ideas, information, et cetera from a person, especially for one's own
use." The first attestation of the brain picking Combo is found in 1681 in
James Scudamore’s Homer Alamode: 2nd Part.
Shauna: 12:14 Yeah.
Well, okay, so Scudamore I, yeah, that is what alamode. ALAMODE. Um, or I
think, oh gosh, no, I'd have to look it up. I, if I remember correctly, alamode
was more about presentation than specifically ice cream?
Dan: 12:27 Oh,
probably. I have no idea. I don't even know why I thought about the side ice
cream and you said that. But that's, that's exactly what we do with My brain
Shauna: 12:40 Cheese...
I know you were gonna say that. I worked at a diner and people would do that
and I'm just like, I can't do that.
Dan: 12:43 Put
like a slice of cheese on their apple pie. And I just want to be like, that's
what are you doing? That's, ugh. I want to be accepting. But even I have my
lines. Oh, what's the weirdest thing, listeners? What's the weirdest thing that
you've ever seen put on apple pie? It definitely is cheese for me, but I love
ice cream on my apple pie, but I don't, I'm a guy who could put cheese on
pretty much anything but not apple pie.
Shauna: 13:11 Yeah.
It doesn't do it for me. Um, yeah. I mean, yeah, I, I worked at it at a diner
that, that their specialty was pie So I'm, I'm curious to hear what you guys
have to say on this one.
Shauna: 13:25 Ah,
yes. "Twas well for them the Boar was slain; 'Cause from his Head they
might by stealth Pick Brains, for use of Commonwealth."
Shauna: 13:41 Well
that was a like unclear actually, if he intended it to be a literal picking of
brains or figurative. But most of the people, most of the experts agree that
the jest applies best if it's read figuratively,
Dan: 13:58 yes,
I would. Yes, I would think so. That's why I wanted to know if he meant it.
Literally. I'm like, oh woo woo.
Shauna: 14:03 Oh,
he, he, he was definitely though commenting on, uh, the political situation.
And so, you know, maybe who knows. In 1770, Charles Burney wrote in Music, Men,
and Manners in France and Italy, "I had young Oliver to dine with us to
day to pick his brains about conservatorios. "
Shauna: 14:28 Okay,
so I don't know, but my guess is that a conservatorio is a person who attends,
leads, uh, or some things, a conservatory.
Shauna: 14:44 not
take care of? I'm thinking more of like the master of said Conservatory or
maybe just like, uh, leaders in there
Dan: 14:53 to
be clear. We have no idea. She may be 100% right, but do not answer your test
question with that.
Shauna: 14:59 You
might not even use it for trivia. If there's a better in, in the multiple
choice answers. That sounds better to go with that. A conservatory though is a,
is a place where people generally study music, arts, things like that in a very
focused and intense manner. And there are everyone involved, lot of times they
live on a campus or live in that conservatory and it allows for this really
dedicated, like nonstop training in, um, in music. All right. Edward George
Earl Lytton Bulwer
Shauna: 15:41 A
different, different, Alice. Can I say though, Edward George Earl, whichever
name you go by that I appreciate. Since your name was so long, you did not take
to the, the normal, uh, titling of your book in the 18 hundreds. Uh,
Dan: 15:58 Oh,
right. Yeah. Yeah. You can only, you can either have a long name or a long
title, but not both.
Shauna: 16:02 Exactly.
So good job. "His success in picking the brains of Mr. Onslow of a secret,
encouraged him."
Shauna: 16:14 Yes.
All right. So I love this one from 1904, Richard Harris's Auld Acquaintance
gave us this glorious quote. "He picked your brain with the same dexterity
that my youthful patrons of other days would have picked your pocket. That is
to say if either of those receptacles had anything in it."
Dan: 16:43 Yeah,
no, that's the best way to do it. If you're going to insult somebody is to
insult yourself while you're at it and then they're like, I'm offended, but
also fine. I guess I, uh, so, so basically what I'm hearing is that once we got
to about the 18 hundreds then pick your brain is pretty much just been
exclusively used like this in the way that we're using the phrase now. Meaning
trying to learn something from someone.
Shauna: 17:07 Yes,
absolutely. The phrase really transitioned over time from being used
figuratively, but to apply to multiple things to the meaning now, which is
generally specifically related to... Generally specifically? It's very general
in its specificity. Now it's mainly used to reference asking for advice or
information and a, that is what it's like you said, been used for since the 18
hundreds.
Dan: 17:38 Well,
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Shauna: 18:22 In
1997, Bardo Pond released the song, pick my brain on their album Lapsed and
fans described this music as psyched out blues. Uh, I listened to four
different tracks before I realized that I wasn't finding corrupted files, but
that, that was the style of the song. Uh, so thank you fan for adding your
review cause I was incredibly helpful to me. Got It. Also, thankfully the
lyrics were posted online. Uh, I shared this one just because I did a really
enjoy the, the lyrics quite a bit.
Shauna: 18:54 Live
around the lake Go in trance to cure Your own drink is the best Kicking out the
house Pick my brain Your own drink is the best Ancient veins drink their own The
smell is left Together the same Pick my brain
Dan: 19:20 Yeah.
I, there's enough craziness going on in my own brain that I don't need to pick
someone else's brain who obviously has some of the same, um, thought processes
the way they work that, uh, that would, would not mix well with mine.
Shauna: 19:39 Yeah.
In 2014 there was a campaign ran called pick your brain, and this was in
Toronto, a pub trivia night. Uh, it was held to benefit brain tumor research.
Dan: 19:50 Oh,
that's a, that's a clever title. Yeah. I could pick your brain. One is very
good for, yeah. Pub Trivia challenged bef benefiting brain cancer. Research. To
fight brain cancer, not help it.
Shauna: 20:04 Yeah.
Some of those are cancerous, but you know. Sure, yeah, yeah. Anyway it was a
cool campaign. Yeah.
Shauna: 20:14 Just
trying to get to know him better. In 2005, the book, pick your brains about
Ireland written by Mary O'Neill was released "At last, a series that tells
children what they want to know about Ireland, whether they are visiting on
holiday, learning about Ireland at school, bored at the airport or want to
learn more about their Irish heroes. Pick Your Brains about Ireland and find
out its: Vital facts and figures * History in a nutshell * Local customs *
Fabulous builidings and sights * Great inventors, artists, writers and
scientists * Food and drink * Incredible festivals and the stories behind them
* Sport * Good books and wicked websites * Phrases in gaelic such as ''my parents
will pay!''.
Shauna: 21:02 If
you can’t tell, this is just one in a series from publisher Cadogan Guides.
There are books about many countries available online and they look fun and
educational. Total bonus! I thought it was totally cool. So it's just a
guidebook to these countries for kids, which is pretty awesome. Nice. In the
2019 article, stop asking, can I pick your brain? Harvard researchers say, this
is how successful people ask for advice. This article is by Gary Burnison on
cnbc.com The article begins: “Can I pick your brain?” Five words that make up
the most thoughtless, irritating and generic way to ask for advice — and any
person who is a rock star in their industry has heard it more than a dozen
times. The phrase, while well-intentioned, is overused, vague and way too
open-ended. When conversations start this way, there’s no telling where it’ll
go or how long it’ll take. I’d like to point out, though, that the quotes from
Harvard individuals didn’t specify our idiom, such as this quote: “The whole
interaction is a subtle and intricate art. It requires emotional intelligence,
self-awareness, restraint, diplomacy and patience,” Harvard Business School
professors Joshua D. Margolisand David A. Garvin wrote in a 2015 Harvard
Business Review article. After reading this article, The Art of Giving and
Receiving Advice… I’m going to recommend it over the former… though it doesn’t
use our idiom today, it’s got some great info!
Dan: 22:40 Yeah.
I'm just, I mean, like, of course, I only see what you put on here for the show
notes, but as I look at it, it looks like another journalist or so-called
journalist just wanting to complain about something with, with an audience.
Shauna: 22:54 Yeah,
I was kind of sad, but I will say that it led to an article that's got some
really great information. So, you know, check that out. Finally, I have to
mention podcasts. There are a plethora of pods, uh, with some sort of play on
the words or the phrase pick your brain. Uh, but instead of giving you this
extensive list, I am going to recommend my favorite brain pod, Dan, do you know
what it is?
Dan: 23:20 Um,
probably, uh, in Moxies podcast, Your Brain On Facts, which I think, um, I
always assumed, I dunno, Moxie, you'll have to let us know. But I always
assumed that it was a little bit of a play. I think Moxie and I might be
somewhere of the same age on the nineties campaign. This is your brain. This is
your brain on drugs. Any questions? Huh? But you know your brain on facts way
better. Oh definitely. Yeah. But I, yes, I love I your brain. I'll facts It's,
it's a amazing podcast.
Shauna: 23:48 Absolutely.
So, and here's a little description. Your brain on facts is a half hour podcast
of things you didn't know, things you thought you knew and things you never
knew. You never knew. Covering topics as diverse as science fiction, funerals,
food origins, heroic animals and their strategic butter reserve. Nice. Nice.
Yeah. I'm going to say a moxie doesn't pay us to advertise or anything. She's
just really awesome. Uh, you don't have to ask. She is picking the brains for
you.
Dan: 24:18 Nice.
Thanks. Yes. Regular listeners to our show. Of course. Heard moiey on the show
several times.
Shauna: 24:23 Yeah,
she is. She's amazing. Awesome. I love the sharing of knowledge. So it's the
total no brainer why I love this phrase.
Shauna: 24:37 So
I think this phrase has stuck around for such a very long time because it makes
it easier for people to connect and easier for them to ask for help. Um, so
the, the comfort of pick your brain and that ease of using that phrase
highlights my favorite thing about language and that's the platform that it
creates for us to better understand ourselves and others and to both receive
and give support. That about wraps us up for today. Thank you so much for
joining us. Don't forget to find us on your favorite podcasting app and leave a
review.
Dan: 25:08 If
you have a suggestion for an idiom or other turn phrase or just want a chat,
you can catch us on social media mostly on Twitter, @bunnytrailspod or on
Patreon at www.patreon.com/bunnytrailspod or catch us at our home
www.bunnytrailspod.com. Thanks again for joining us. We'll talk to you again
next week. Until then, remember,
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