We used Temi to auto transcribe this, then Dan went through and checked it based on the show notes. He tried really hard on it, but this kind of stuff isn't his specialty. So if you notice anything confusing, please comment on this post so Dan can look at it and clarify anything.
Dan: 00:00 Welcome
to bunny trails, a whimsical adventure of idioms and are the turns of phrase,
I'm Dan Pugh
Shauna: 00:05 And
I'm Shauna Harrison. Each week we delve into the origin and history of an idiom
or other turn of phrase and discuss how it's been used over time. This week,
things are going to get real because Dan, I've got a bone to pick with you.
Dan: 00:18 I
swear I, if I did it, I didn't mean to, and if I didn't do it, then why are we
picking on me? What's going on?
Dan: 00:30 Oh,
right. Okay. I get it. I should really look at the show notes before we do an
episode. I thought you were mad at me and I was like, what did I do that made
you so mad you're gonna wait until we were recording to say something about it.
Shauna: 00:41 I
need this on record! So they have a bone to pick with someone means that you
have an issue with the person, uh, that you disagree strongly with them. Or it
can also mean that you have a serious matter to discuss with someone. Uh,
possibly at great length.
Dan: 00:58 Mm.
Well, I have a serious bone to pick with a specific elected official in the
United States of America who is boneheaded
Shauna: 01:09 Uh
oh. We're getting into dangerous territory now. So Dan, how far back do you
think this phrase goes? Like year?
Shauna: 01:31 Yeah.
It's on, oh, a bit ago. The full definition of the phrase, according to Oxford
English dictionary a is a bone to pick also gnaw, and variants. Originally it
was a matter or undertaking, requiring close attention or concentration, a
problem to be considered or resolved. And then later, mainly a, an issue to be
discussed or settled between two or more parties, a matter of dispute
frequently now mainly, uh, in to have a bone to pick with a person. So.
Shauna: 02:10 Yeah.
Uh, and I, I really love that. So, uh, you know, people now say, I have a bone
to pick with you or that's kind of how you hear it. But uh, yeah, just bone to
na
Shauna: 02:21 Yeah.
In 1450 or around that time at Charles Duke of Orleans wrote in poems, "I
told you, now write well and fine. When you had seen perhaps you never saw it
might well happen, you find a bone to gnaw".
Shauna: 02:41 Yeah.
Uh, so then it later in 1565, uh, James Calfhill and this is in an answer to
the treatise treatise of the cross and he wrote "a bone for you to pick
on". And in this time frame it was really more saying something for
someone, spend a lot of time on, uh, not necessarily that they were upset about
it, but it kind of went back and forth from being related to frustration or
anger or being upset about something. Um, but a lot more was spent, was used to
say that something was really focused on for or took a long time to process.
Dan: 03:18 I,
I know that dogs at this point, like if you toss them a bone and a big one,
then you're like, well that'll, he'll be able to gnaw on that for awhile and
chew on this or gnaw on this means to think of something I wonder if those
origins have some of the same roots.
Shauna: 03:30 Yeah,
sort of related there. Um, now I also want to take a moment here to mention
that there were a references online that discussed the phrase bone of
contention as being a possible origin for bone to pick. Um, I, however I'm
going to say they were at best contemporaries and um, you know, some of that
that came up actually did have to do with the dog concept because that's where
that bone of contention sort of came from, was two dogs fighting over a bone.
And so people thought that there was some connection there. Uh, but without
researching too much, uh, just an initial look, Kinda told me that bone of contention
was not really around until the late 15 hundreds. And we're already seeing
multiple uses of bone to pick starting in the 14 hundreds. In 1579, Stephen
Gosson wrote in the school of abuse, "some arch player will cast me a bone
or two to pick"
Shauna: 04:24 So
up to this point, uh, the phrase has again been used kind of literally to say
something that's, people are taking a lot of time on it or, um, as you
mentioned, you know, a dog's gonna chew on that bone for a long time. And
actually people did at this time to kind of chew on bones, which is a little
gross. Um, but, uh, so there's also some debate though on this next phrase as
whether it or this next excerpt as to whether it was intended to be used, uh,
as a, uh, in a figurative way here. Thomas Hoccleve in Hoccleve Works, uh, the
minor poems wrote, "he (referring to God) me gave a bone me on for to gnaw
/ me to correct and of him to have awe" the minor poems were marked as
having been recorded in 1605, but they were possibly shared as early as 1422
and then kind of compiled into this group of, of poems. Uh, but the dating of
middle English works, it gets really tricky. So
Dan: 05:21 that
is very true and I'm glad I'm not one who has to do it super often. Like, you
know, day in and day out for my job. Yes.
Shauna: 05:29 So
a me too. So this is really where that transition into the figurative use
started though, was that this time it started being seen, referenced in
literature without having direct quotes in novels and things like that, but
was, was referred to in some of those, uh, just kind of mentions, um,
definitions and things like that. Moving ahead to 1703 in Sir Giddy whim or the
Lucky Amore. This is a comedy we read, "I'll engage to throw him such a
bone to pick shall make their eyeteeth crack."
Dan: 06:12 How
did we not, how did we not use this quote when we talked about it or did we,
and I've forgotten it?
Shauna: 06:17 I
don't think we did. And I was like, I saw it and I was like, I have to include
this one because you know eye teeth, Bleugh.
Dan: 06:25 No.
I wonder, we might have, I literally had blocked it as an a concept from my
brain until you just said that and then it all came flooding back to me. Yeah,
Shauna: 06:37 I
did. I didn't really like this one though. Because it's saying they're going to
spend it, they're going to be so engaged. Right. They're going to be, they're
going to spend so much time on this that it's going to go all the way through
maturity.
Dan: 06:50 Right?
Yes. And for those of you who didn't catch that episode eye teeth were another
way to refer to wisdom teeth,
Dan: 06:59 Right.
But it does sound awful because they thought, you know, it came from up top. So
that was why they were wise wisdom teeth because they came from your brain or
your eyes, perhaps eye teeth
Shauna: 07:12 in
1766 in the gazetteer and new daily advertiser. Uh, this is the February 12th
edition and it's out of London. Middlesex, we find the quote, "squintum
has said the devil had a bone to pick with foote" and, uh, foot-eh. Foot.
I'm not sure how to pronounce his name.
Shauna: 07:44 I
can't, I'm not getting there. Uh, yeah. So he was a satirical writer. Uh, it
seems he wrote mostly plays, uh, that didn't always go over well with everyone
Shauna: 08:06 you
know, it feels like I need to, but it's probably because I'm not from the city
at all. Um, and so this is an October 3rd issue, 1817, "Canada would be no
longer a bone to pick between England and America". And okay. This next
quotes, a lot of fun. Uh, academicians have a history of using words.
Dan: 08:29 Aca...
aca.. Academia you, if you're talking about a specific academic, you'd say an
academician?
Shauna: 08:36 academician,
act, academician. I think so. Like if you are a person who enjoys academia,
then you're an academician.
Dan: 08:44 Well,
first of all, I've never seen that word before. And then second of all, now I'm
wondering how to pronounce it. I mean, you're probably right.
Shauna: 08:58 But
I'm going to go with it. Academicians <Dan starts laughing> have a
history of using words. <Shauna joins in the laughter>
Shauna: 09:10 In
a very playful manner. I don't know if you've noticed this with scientists, but
they throw as much random, uh, funny pun type stuff in their, uh, into their
papers as they can. Uh, anyway, I happen to like this one a bit. In his 1850
essay, Henry Rogers wrote "many a bone in these lectures, which a keen
metaphysician would be disposed to pick with the author." In 1884, Henry
Rider Haggard in Dawn wrote, "I considered that I had got a bone to pick
with Providence about that nose. "
Dan: 09:45 Ah,
yeah. Well that's fair. I a look at my nose and I have a bone to pick with
providence and with my, uh, brother who broke my nose less times than I broke
his growing up. Uh, not from fighting, but from mostly playing football and
rough housing. Um, and then also, you know, just from, um, the amazing number
of things, I'm allergic to in this area. So as far as my nose goes, I have
bones to pick with many, many entities.
Shauna: 10:13 Fair
enough. Yeah. So in this quote, providence is capitalized and so I'm not sure if
it's referencing providence in the, that fate concept or if it's a person a,
which actually makes me want to read it and find out
Dan: 10:33 seems
awful weird. I choose to believe providence was probably to divine fate of some
sort or non divine fate, whatever fate in general.
Shauna: 10:43 Hmm.
So in the Pennsylvania magazine history and biography, and this is from 1941
uh, there's an excellent quote. "The merchants for their part had a bone
to pick with the customs office. "
Dan: 11:04 Well,
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Shauna: 11:41 In
1999 the song Bone 2 Pick was released by Angie stone and some of the lyrics to
this song. Uh, well we, we just can't have them on this episode. The portion
with our phrase goes like this "cause I got a bone to pick with you. Ain't
nothing new under the sun and I got to talk to have with you. So baby, if it
fits then wear the shoe. "
Dan: 12:05 Oh.
Oh Wow. She's got a couple of them in here. The shoe fits and she a re
modified. Oh Wow.
Dan: 12:19 Yeah,
well it's a song about, you know, frustration I would think because it's called
bone to pick.
Shauna: 12:24 Yeah.
Uh, all right. So in uh, 2017, a Goodreads, by the name of T.A. Moore, she
released the book Bone To Pick from the series Digging Up Bones. And this was
the first in that series. Cloister Witte is a man with a dark past and a cute
dog. He’s happy to talk about the dog all day, but after growing up in the
shadow of a missing brother, a deadbeat dad, and a criminal stepfather, he’d
rather leave the past back in Montana. These days he’s a K-9 officer in the San
Diego County Sheriff's Department and pays a tithe to his ghosts by doing what
no one was able to do for his brother—find the missing and bring them home.
He’s good at solving difficult mysteries. The dog is even better…
Dan: 13:11 I
um, so you, you said he's a canine officer and then I had to stop and figure
out is, is, is Cloiset Witte the dog? But you did start with Cloister Witte is
a man. So then I was like, wait a minute. And then I realized, oh, he's
probably like a canine handler. Okay. I'm following. All right. Right.
Shauna: 13:30 So
are they all called officers? Okay. So if you're on the canine unit, are there
also humans that are considered part of the Canine Unit? I don't know how that
works.
Dan: 13:37 I
also don't know how that works. But I know that the canine, the dogs are
officers, so that is 100% accurate. And the, their handlers are officers when,
when it's a police canine unit and not like a, you know, a arson investigation
unit which may be attached to a fire department instead. But yeah, but I don't,
I don't know what the appropriate term is but let's assume it's canine officer.
Cause I'm sure you just read that synopsis, you know, Verbatim. So
Shauna: 14:11 Ah,
darn it. Uh, all right. So then we also had a wonderful post on Twitter, uh,
from a lovely lady. I'm just going to go with "Hal" and not share any
more details. Uh, she says "I have a bone to pick with you." Uh, and
she tagged Venmo that and then shared a picture of the front and back of her
debit card.
Dan: 14:37 Oh
No, I see the picture here. She has her, the three digit code on the back is
six, six, six. Oh yeah. Venmo probably also has a comment to make to you
immediately. We're gonna go ahead and de-activate your card and issue you a new
one. Right. For a variety of reasons,
Shauna: 14:57 I
guess. Congratulations. You're getting a new card. I really don't know. But I
was like, okay honey, you like, a lot of people don't like that number. Um, but
if it is your special pass code, like access number to, all of your money.
Don't tell anyone.
Dan: 15:14 Oh
yeah, definitely. Do not take pictures and put it on, on, uh, social media or
whatever. Yeah.
Shauna: 15:21 Yeah.
I, yeah. So I, I really loved this phrase a, it's like this chill, but kind of
pointed way to let somebody know that you've got a problem with them. Uh, and
it also never strayed too far from its origins, uh, but it Kinda just float
along with changes in culture, in society. Um, but it, but it stayed pretty
true to what it originally meant, which was cool.
Dan: 15:44 I
do, I do like bone to gnaw, better than bone to pick with you, but I, I, I
think bone to pick with you flows better in today's language than bone to gnaw.
Shauna: 16:05 Although,
can I say to you, I was actually surprised that this one wasn't in a
Shakespeare play somewhere.
Dan: 16:13 Oh
yeah. Well that's actually why I went with 16 hundreds cause I was like, oh, I
mean it's probably just something that Shakespeare stole along the way like you
did with 90% of his stuff.
Shauna: 16:23 Yeah,
only turns out... no. Well that about wraps us up for today. Thank you so much
for joining us. Don't forget to find us on your favorite podcasting app and
leave us a review. We are now on Pandora by the way, so that's pretty awesome.
Dan: 16:36 If
you have a suggestion for an idiom or another turn of phrase or you just want
to chat, you can catch us on social media, mostly on Twitter, @bunnytrailspod
or on Patreon at www.patreon.com/bunnytrailspod. You can get copies of our
transcripts, listen to the episode and get links to everywhere we are and
everything we do at www.bunnytrailspod.com
Dan: 16:54 One
thing that I want to leave you with is to go check out the most recent episode
of The Allusionist Show, uh, that is available wherever you get your podcast as
well. It is a relatively short episode, but it is an absolute lot of fun to
hear the "new rules" and talking about different rules of speech and
how those have changed over time. One of my favorite parts was when Helen
Zaltzman and the person she was interviewing were having a conversation about
how, how in England, in the, in the UK, they were using i-z-e and i-s-e at the
ends of several words like realize and that kind of stuff, uh, in UK for a long
time and for hundreds of years they'd been doing that.
Dan: 17:35 But
then as word processors and uh, you know, like Word and like these autocorrect
formatting type things started coming out. It talked about how, how I had to
pick one or the other. And so for in America it was i-z-e and in the UK they
made it for a British English. They made it i-s-e. And because of that, then
there was this national resurgence with i-s-e being the predominant way that
that was used in, uh, in British English. Despite the fact that for hundreds of
years it's been, both has been acceptable and frequently used. So it was very,
it's a very interesting episode. I definitely recommend that you go check it
out.
Dan: 18:15 Well,
thanks again for joining us. We'll talk to you again next week. And until then,
remember,
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